The Vicki Kotris Podcast

Ep 59: From Educator to Entrepreneur: Kelly Kumler’s Leap into Creative Business

• Vicki Kotris • Episode 59

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In this podcast episode, meet Kelly Kumler, a former elementary school teacher who transformed her side hustle of designing digital resources into a full-time career. After discovering her passion for design, particularly in the wedding industry, she founded Kelly Ryan Co., where she helps creatives such as florists, wedding planners, and photographers build premium brands, stunning websites, and SEO-driven content. 

Through her journey from burnout to thriving business owner, Kelly shares valuable insights on transitioning careers, finding your niche, the importance of storytelling in branding, and practical tips on SEO and website design. Whether you're a new business owner or looking to elevate your brand, this episode offers golden nuggets of advice on navigating the entrepreneurial landscape.

Connect with Kelly on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kellyryannco/

Learn more about Kelly's services here: https://kellyryann.com/

Thank you again for tuning into another episode of the Vicki Kotris Podcast! I want to support you, cheer you on a HYPE you up!! If you're celebrating anything (and I mean ANYTHING), send me a DM and let me highlight you on a recent episode.

If you're looking for support in building a social media content strategy, I'm your girl! Send me an email to vkkotris@gmail.com and we can set up a FREE account audit.

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Kelly Kumler:

Good.

Vicki:

all too well. Meet Kelly, a show it fanatic, font obsessed designer, and full blown SEO nerd who transformed her burnout into a thriving brand and web design business. After seven years as an elementary school teacher, Kelly started designing digital resources, first for herself, then for her fellow educators, and finally for small businesses in the wedding industry. What started as a side project soon became her full time passion, helping creatives attract and book their dream clients. Now, as the founder of Kelly Ryan Co., she's all about helping florists, wedding planners, and photographers Build premium brands, stunning websites, and SEO driven content that gets results. If you're ready to level up your online presence and turn clicks into clients, stick around because this is the episode for you. So let's dive in. Hey, Kelly. How are you?

Kelly Kumler:

How are you?

Vicki:

Great. I'm so happy to have you here.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Vicki:

Absolutely. Something that inspires me and has always inspired me as I've started multiple businesses in the past seven or eight years is the stories of. Those who have kind of listened to their intuition and said I know there's something different that I meant to do and your story is no different than that. So you started as a teacher, you have since left the education field and I want to know when that happened for you, what was the turning point that made you say, you know what, I don't feel connected to this and I want to try something different.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, so I had started, like you said, like, started creating digital resources, um, kind of as this, like, side hustle to teaching, which is so common in the teaching world. Like, almost every teacher I knew had some kind of, like, side income, right? Um, and so I started doing that probably a year three of teaching. Um, but I never really thought like, oh, I would take this and leave the classroom with it. Um, but then as I had my first son in 2021 and like really started to understand that balance or lack thereof between like trying to be a mom and trying to be a good teacher and I just kept feeling that itch got stronger to be like what there's got to be something more out there um something where I can actually Live a life and do both because I knew I didn't want

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

stay at home mom. Um, so I was trying to figure out like what that was going to be. So took my, you know, creative experience from teaching and turned it into my, my full time gig now.

Vicki:

So, when you were doing this on the side, like you said you were teaching, what were some of the things that you were doing when it was solely a side hustle?

Kelly Kumler:

So I started by making resources for a website called Teachers Pay Teachers, um, so you like, I, I'm like, if you're familiar with it,

Vicki:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

different resources that teachers can buy and then use in their classroom, and through that, I kind of built this whole following of, um, other online teacherpreneurs and started then making logos for these teachers for their teachers pay teachers shops. So that's where I started getting into the understanding of like, why a logo matters and design and like, how do you even do these design things online? Um, and started making those connections through that while I was still teaching.

Vicki:

There are two things about what you just shared that I really love. Number one is, and I, and I'll ask you because I do want to get clarification for the audience listening is, did you have design background? Did you graduate with like a graphic design degree in addition to education or was this something you just taught yourself?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, no, I, um, was a psychology major, and then went on and got my master's in education, so there was no formal design experience. I do remember, like, in high school, I would sit there, like, doodling, particularly words and letters. Like, I was obsessed with like fonts and typography. And I thought from then, like I'm going to be a graphic designer one day, but it was like

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

things that felt so unattainable. Like I'm not artistic enough. I can't make that

Vicki:

Mm.

Kelly Kumler:

Um, and so then it kind of took, know, like 15 years for it to come back

Vicki:

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's that trapped idea that we unfortunately live in that you need some kind of formal training or education to be considered an expert instead of putting the emphasis on the doing and I think we see that a lot with the student loan crisis and people who were like, I graduated with 120, 000 of student loan debt, and I still have no idea what I want to do. And, but maybe I'll go to grad school or maybe I'll get my doctorate and not having a direction to back that up. Not that we don't need doctors and like, you know, people with master's degrees in the world because we do. But I think a lot of times people are waiting for that to be their permission slip of expertise instead of saying, why don't I just. Try this, because I like it, and maybe it can turn into something.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, absolutely. It's so, like, it's such a mental block, I think, where we, if you, like, go back to thinking what were the things you wanted to do when you were younger, and then, like, what stopped you from doing it? doing those things. Like, some

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

it's like, well, I don't want to do that at all anymore. But, um,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

those ideas were there at one point because you felt some kind of calling to them.

Vicki:

Yes. I believe in that so strongly. And, so, did you have that moment of shedding your mental block to get into that new phase of, you know, like how Stella got her groove back? How'd you get your groove into thinking, this is, this is who I am now?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, I mean, I think it started because I had it as a side hustle. I wasn't relying on it as a form of income. It was just kind of like an extra fun thing to do. And it's like so funny to think like the first logos that I made, first of all, the first ones were free. Like I was like reaching out to people like, can I do this for you for free? then, um, I started charging like 25, you know, 40, which now is like

Vicki:

Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Kelly Kumler:

It kind of like just took over time for me to understand that and I think the like biggest jump when I had to like really shed that previous mindset of like I can't do this

Vicki:

Mm hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

it. I'm going to figure it out. So

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

like the biggest. I have to moment.

Vicki:

Yeah, yeah, and you, it sounds like you kind of leveled up along the way, which it is, it is very humbling to do a lot of work for free, and I've done it in every single business that I've started, and this is my third, where you, You depressurize the situation and, um, and I think if there's good and bad things, it helps you hone in on the things that you're good at while you can take the pressure off. But I do think sometimes it sets the tone of like, oh, the person you're working for maybe doesn't take it as seriously when Really, you know, this working in a, in a professional services environment, like both people have to be invested, but I, it, there is a time and a place because I'm sure at each level, it's like, I charge 25, then I charge 500 and now for a website, 5, 000, like whatever that range is that you go up, it's your skills are increasing as you are charging more. So I think there's a really great strategy to that. And. And being really mindful with your overall experience.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah. I think that there's definitely like different schools of thought on that specifically, you know, some people are like, no charge your worth, like immediately,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

I personally am definitely more of like, uh, let me like inch things up over time and kind of see where that line is, um, to where like my ideal client meets. My services and value. Um, but it can definitely, you can have different ways of going about it for sure.

Vicki:

Yeah. I agree. I agree. So when you decided that you're gonna do this full time, like you're a new mom You are feeling the pressures of going back to work full time, which I'm a newer mom to and I feel the same way. And just being, it's such an eye opening experience of being sold kind of a bill of goods that you can do everything. You can be the best mom and have a great career and still do things at home. And unfortunately, like, There is a lot of that silent work that falls on being a mom and being a woman. And I think, I learned that very early as trying to juggle it all. It just creates more of an emotional and mental pain, frankly, you know? Like you're just in this place where you're overthinking everything. And so I'm curious, since that seems to be the catalyst for you, is when in that When in that period of your, of time did you say I'm gonna do this full time and maybe you're not doing it full time too So I'd be interested to know was this something you chose to do simply because it wasn't 40 hours required to sit in a classroom from 7 to 3 or whatever.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, so I, I would call this my full time gig, but, um, I really work between the hours of like 9 a. m. and like 2 p. m., um, because I still do drop off and pick up most days for the kids. My

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

too, but, um, so it's like. My full time job, but still nothing compared to like the hours I put in while teaching, but that

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

right? Like to have that option to like

Vicki:

Yeah

Kelly Kumler:

own schedule. Um, but yeah, I was really, I, so my son was born in July, so he's a summer baby and I went back to teaching that year. And it was by January that my husband and I were like, this is not working. Like I am getting called out of class. weekly and keep in mind this was 2021 so like COVID was

Vicki:

Yeah

Kelly Kumler:

going and daycares were still getting shut down because of COVID exposures and things like so I was being pulled in so many directions that I was just like this is not I can't even enjoy being a mom I can't enjoy being a teacher I was so overwhelmed and overworked that there was like nothing that I could like point to and be like oh this is going well you know

Vicki:

Yeah. Mhm. At least I have this.

Kelly Kumler:

Yes. Yeah. It was like, Oh my gosh, there is none of that. So yeah, it was, um, by January and initially we, I had started applying to other jobs, like, okay, I'll just

Vicki:

Okay. Bye.

Kelly Kumler:

remote and I'll do that. then after spending so much time applying to jobs, you know, you just like apply to everything. And getting really like nothing back, like no traction, barely any even emails back. I

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

why am I wasting my time doing this when I should just be working for myself? And fortunately, my husband's like the hype person for me. And he's like, you should, you

Vicki:

Amazing.

Kelly Kumler:

business owner. So

Vicki:

Aw.

Kelly Kumler:

he really like pushed me into giving it a shot. So,

Vicki:

And how long was that period of time where you started making your own designs on Teachers Pay Teachers to fast forward to 20, at this point, 2022, where you're, you know, leaning into this full time?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, um, let's see, I think I started making resources for Teachers Pay Teachers in probably 2018. I think I actually opened my shop, I started making things for my own class 2018 and then I opened my own like Teachers Pay Teachers shop in 2019.

Vicki:

Wow.

Kelly Kumler:

then it probably was like a year of doing that before I actually got into like the logo design side of things.

Vicki:

Mm hmm.

Kelly Kumler:

it was definitely like a gradual. progression.

Vicki:

Wow. I mean, that's not that long of a time, honestly, to, to say, I want to move into this. And I, I, the reason why I want to point it out is something that I've dealt with in my own path is thinking that this work has to be a grind and you have to do it for years and years and years instead of building a really mindful goal. process, which is, I'm going to do this, uh, part time. I'm going to do this as my side hustle. Okay, I have the confidence now that I know I can turn this into a full time venture for myself. So, I'm glad that you shared that, because honestly, even though you have built this really strategically, I think it helps other people who might think that it's a lot longer of a transition before you can start working for yourself full time.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah. And I will say that, like, I was definitely not like making, replacing my income by that point.

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

but it was just this moment of like, I have to do this now, so I better find a way to replace my income. Um,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

even, even in that like full time, it's taken time to build that revenue. Um, but it was, it was more of like the emotional feeling behind it that I was like, you know, I wasn't ready in the sense that I had the income coming in from this side hustle, I had to do it at that time.

Vicki:

Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. That's that's opening your mind to the fact that you it's not a equal exchange. Sometimes it's not a one for one and you wait. I mean, there are people who could wait. You literally could wait decades to say I'm going to wait until this side hustle or whatever it is replaces my full income at this corporate job that you hate. So you could wait and waste all those years disliking something, or you could make that change, realize and accept that okay, I'm earning less, but I have so much more time to figure out how to earn more, how to level up, how to move into that next stage. So I'm glad that you shared that because I don't think, um, I think that's what holds a lot of people back from take, leaning into something more full time or more seriously.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah.

Vicki:

And I'm curious, what would you say is the biggest skill that you took away from your teaching career that you use every day in your entrepreneur life?

Kelly Kumler:

Oh my gosh. That's such a hard one because it feels so different even though I know

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

So connected, uh, it's probably just my ability to like organize my time, honestly, um, you know, within teaching, it's like, you have 5 million things that need to be accomplished

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

the year. And sometimes you are in positions at different schools or with different teams that have that like really organized, like, okay, we're going to hit this during this period and this during this period and whatever. But sometimes it's like, This has to be accomplished by the end of the year, welcome to August, figure

Vicki:

Uh huh.

Kelly Kumler:

going to go. Um, and so then that has really like helped me figure out, know, working on client projects, like together scope and sequence and what is going to make sense of what needs to happen before they get to me and what I need to do before they can move on to someone else. Um, and just kind of the whole like process of a project.

Vicki:

Amazing, yeah. I, this is a question that comes up a lot, and it comes up as I continue to talk to clients, um, in being more of a marketing freelancer. And it's, how do you transition from Um, kind of taking projects one on one as they come where you're not as dependent on having, you know, regular income or taking on regular projects. And so what I'm getting at and I, um, what I'm getting at is that sales strategy behind finding your people and now you specialize in a, in a specific industry, which I want to talk about in detail in just a few minutes. But I'm curious for you, what has been the best path in finding clients and maybe doing repeat projects or getting referrals and things like that?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, so I know some people, you know, really rely on retainers versus projects or a mix of both. Um, I really do like a per project basis. It's just, I have found that's like the way that my brain works the best is like, I like a start date. I like an end date and we're moving on. Um, but I have had. know, clients that come back, either they come to me for a brand and then they come back later for a website or some of my clients are also multi business owners, you know, like yourself, where it's like, they'll come to me for one business and then later they're like, Hey, actually there's other business needs this makeover.

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

and so I think there's like so many. Um, you know, obviously so many different ways that you can go about it, but for me, I think having like a strong client experience, um, really helps in making sure that people are referring you to

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

and family. Um, and also that they would come back to you if they need additional work. Um, so probably like my biggest source of clients is actually Instagram

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

um, referrals or like repeats.

Vicki:

Amazing. Okay, great. I want to talk about how you use social in your business too. Specifically Instagram, but before we do, um I I do want to dive into how you found your niche. So you work with specifically wedding professionals. It's a, that's a leap, right? From your, your education niche that you used to be in. So did you pick that kind of naturally? Did you, were you more intentional? Was it an accident? Like, how did you come to pick your niche and, and how has that helped you in just, uh, you know, how you build your services?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, so I, um, again, like another little side hustle I picked up while teaching, um, I started, um, designing wedding stationery and just like putting it on Etsy. and this was while I was engaged, so I was like, oh, you know. This is a fun thing and just kind of again like had some of the design experience so I kind of paired it with this stationery world, um, and through that just sort of connecting with people again on Instagram that were in like my local wedding. community. and so that business did not last long. COVID came around literally three months after I started the business, COVID hit. And so I was just kind of like, eh, I don't really love this that much anyways.

Vicki:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

I did, like, language and speech pathologists. I did, um, uh, lawyers. Um, and then like from that first year of clients, though, almost all of them were within the wedding industry. You know, I had these like few outliers, but still like there was kind of this common thread. So from that point, I was just like, you know, I might as well like lean into this a little bit. And. understand the industry so that I can give people the best, advice and as they're building their marketing. Um, and so it was kind of just like a natural fit and I like working with creative people. So it worked

Vicki:

Yeah. That's amazing. I love that there's all of these little pockets in your story too, Kelly, of you just going for it. It's not like I just spent this time like designing for years and years. It's like, no, I design this stationary. Stationary. I tried it out. I network with people who were in the wedding industry, which. I truly believe everything is connected, like every step that you take, everything you learn, anyone you meet is all someone that can come back around and just be there for that next phase or for that, you know, like a networking opportunity I think is incredible because you don't know when the Someone's going to help you out or when you'll have the ability to help someone or serve someone in a new way So I love that you just jumped into that And you mentioned something of like being Very connected to just creatives that are in the wedding industry and you acting as a creative what you know What I know to be true is it would be great if running a business is all about like bright colors and ideas and like picking fonts. We know that there's so much more to that. So when it comes to running the business side, like when do I pay my taxes or how to set up a system to invoice and have contracts so that everyone knows there's a start date, there's an end date, what helped you on the business side the most as you were kind of figuring that out in your entrepreneur role?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, I really, it became like from my time of doing all of this in a

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

um, you know, I learned a lot about marketing from my teacher's paid teacher's um, and just like how to market these products I was making. Um, I also learned so much about the actual, like behind the scenes of a business in my just few months in wedding

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

because it was during COVID, you know, I ended up having some free time. So I

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

going through, you know, business courses and just like, I would listen to my business podcasts and like trying to learn what the heck marketing even was while I

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

the room with my newborn baby who would not sleep by himself and would only sleep on me. So I've been like, put in my AirPods and just like, sit there holding the baby and learning

Vicki:

It's a great trick.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah.

Vicki:

I love that.

Kelly Kumler:

you just can't get any, and I'm such a, like, I'm such an Enneagram three, like I'd have to do, keep doing something. So that was such a hard case for me. I was like, what? I just sit in this room and hold this baby and don't do anything. You know, And so probably like a toxic trait, but that's where I, you know, popped in the AirPods and made some

Vicki:

Yeah. Do you have any favorites or any suggestions of the podcasts you listen to or any business books that really, like, stuck out to you as being really helpful?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, um, gosh, there's like so many podcasts that I have listened to like single episodes of over time, but there are

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

books that I love and like go back to. And one is, um,

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

So that is like. setting up, you know, your banks, your bank accounts and your money to make sure that you are paying yourself. Because was something I was so foreign to, like, how do I pay myself? What does that mean? And really, you know, ultimately I was leaving my career to take this job so that I could pay myself in a way that was life. So that one I

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

The other is, um, building a story brand. So that is all about like, it's really like the basis of your marketing and just your

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

needs to have a story to it and like

Vicki:

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Kelly Kumler:

all the touch points where

Vicki:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And the, I couldn't agree more about storytelling, and it's something that I think has, I didn't know it at the time, but has always come really natural to me, like picking pieces out of my life and thinking, Oh, this is how I, Get that this connects or this is how I can push this thing forward and uh, like my example is that when I I did an accelerator program like five years ago, it was right before kovat and They had this huge pitch competition at the end. So you spent like 12 weeks or so learning all these different areas of business and one big area was marketing and branding. And so they were training us on like how you do a proper pitch, which I had never done before in asking for money or anything like that. So, um, that, that emphasis on the emotional connection that is in your brand and every single business that was in this accelerator program had one. I mean, we were in there for selling cookie dough for God's sakes, like finding an emotional connection with cookie dough. It's not. It wasn't like so topical that you could find it, but I found that I was really good at kind of uncovering that. And so that's really what I preach now when I talk to my clients is that your social media, your emails, everything needs to be fed with that. The thread of your storyline. What is it like? What inspired you to leave your corporate job and start this business? Because that is that's the storytelling that you want that people will really connect to.

Kelly Kumler:

Mm

Vicki:

So I, um, I'm glad that you found that too, because it's. It is something that's so often overlooked, um, when you're a solopreneur or a small business owner that doesn't have a team that, that comes natural to. You know, you really have to start to like pluck out those details to make it make sense to your audience and ultimately why someone would buy from you.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, and I think especially, like, it's so hard to do for yourself, like, you know,

Vicki:

Mm hmm.

Kelly Kumler:

trying to look at your own story and get that out could be So like you get so overwhelmed by it. I mean,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

a rebrand and obviously like that's something that I do and I hired someone else because I was like, I am too close to it. Like I'm going to overthink every step of this way. Like for client work, I can no problem put these things together. But like when it

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

my own business, I overthink it and I get way too like stuck in my head. And I think so many of us as like, So entrepreneurs or like small business owners do the same thing where it's hard to like inside at your own story.

Vicki:

Yeah. So what did that teach you now that you're going through a rebrand? What did you learn from outsourcing and bringing in basically a you to do that same exercise for yourself?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, I mean, fortunately, I worked with people, like almost everyone, because I hired multiple people for different parts of this rebrand, um,

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

almost everyone that I hired is someone I had worked with previously, so I knew they were going to be great, um, and I didn't have to, like, over that and, like,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

oh my gosh, it's what if it's not as great as I would do it? Like I was not

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

because I already knew that I would like overpick every little thing Myself and

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

these external idea thinker people

Vicki:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, and it was just like if you were going to any time that you're trying to like outsource anything And like obviously look at their work, but then also like try and get to know them first. You know, you're not always going to have the luxury that I had of like having worked with these people before on like

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

or like client projects. Um, but in, this case like that going into it, knowing how each of them worked and like their style and what I could expect out of it was so big.

Vicki:

That's amazing. And to have someone that you trust and that you can validate their work. And I think it's also taking a little bit of yourself out of it and saying, I'm going to trust the process and I know how to guide these people, but I'm going to give creative freedom to make it make sense. And I think this is kind of a good. Segway into the next part of our interview, which is giving some really practical tips and tips that are, I would say, like guides that small businesses or solopreneurs can use as they develop their own branding strategy. And I like to be fair that not everyone. Um, is either focusing on branding or can afford a, uh, you know, a big rebrand package. A lot of times, and you know this too, when you start your business, you're doing so many things on your own. So maybe you can talk about that from the lens of someone who they're not ready to do a full investment, but they still are. wanting to show up in the right way to connect with their dreamiest clients. So if we just say from a base level, like what are two or three things that you would say you have to have as you're building your brand as a new, we'll say newer business owner?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, I think the very first thing is really understand who you want to work with your ideal client, your ideal audience, and really try and put together like as much information about this person or group of people as you can. And I know that at first that seems so weird because you're like, this is just like a made up person. But you want to try and understand everything about them. Like where are they spending their time? Are they on Instagram? Are they going to be at more like in person events? You know, this is all then leading to how are you going to be marketing your business?

Vicki:

Mm hmm. Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

Client is always my suggested first step. Um, another thing that I recommend for anyone that's in that, like through the rebranding, or I mean, maybe even just establishing your brand to begin with, um, is trying to, um, understand like where. How you're different. So this is one area that I like love to turn to Chat GPT or AI

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

I will literally go and I do this for clients, too Like I have my clients give me their top competitors and then I will go collect those competitors you know, social media accounts, their websites, any bit

Vicki:

Okay. Wow.

Kelly Kumler:

yourself and you kind of need that outside perspective,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

know, use the robots.

Vicki:

Oh, I love it. And ChatGPT, yes, should be everyone's best friend. I personally don't think that it's going to replace the jobs of creatives because there is, there are limitations that anyone who has used it. Often knows, um, but the jolt of inspiration that you get from using AI in that exact way, it's unmatched. I mean, it is, it's phenomenal and I, that's what I recommend to business owners all the time. Um, if you're feeling stuck, if you need to create a content strategy, that's such a good place to start. It doesn't mean you rely on it for everything, but you're right. Positioning is such a good example because you don't have time to do. Marketing analytics on every single one of your cust or, uh, your competitors, like you're not Target, you know, you are someone who is doing a million things, so make it easier for yourself.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, absolutely. And yes, of course, like when I am doing it for my own clients, I'm not like, you know, spit it out and then just copy paste into a document and send to them.

Vicki:

Yeah,

Kelly Kumler:

so much more analysis behind it, right? But like, if you are doing it on your own, that's such a good starting point just to

Vicki:

yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

the things that you don't even recognize. You know, you are surrounded by your competitors all the time. Um, especially if you're in like a local market, like, um, like a lot of my clients in the wedding industry, you know, most of their competitors are local to them. And so they're like seeing their content all the time. They're seeing their work all the time. And it's hard to then like put yourself away from it and be like, Oh, but look, they do that. And you do this and

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

out.

Vicki:

I think that's really true. What is one common mistake that you see small business owners make when it comes to their websites specifically? And how do you help them right that wrong? Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

about what they do. So oftentimes it's like, welcome to my website. Um, or like, welcome to my business name. And that doesn't really tell the visitor anything about who you are. You're assuming that they already know who you are when they get to your website. If you're, you know, having some kind of headline like that. Whereas I recommend one, your headline is like the best chance to include keywords for SEO. Um, but also to really like immediately call out who you are, what you do, where you do it, like photographer based in Boise, Idaho. What like something so simple like that doesn't need to be a paragraph. It's just like a line, but it immediately tells people who you are and what you do.

Vicki:

That's amazing. Okay, and then from a design perspective, what insights do you have for just a website no no? Like, take this out of your website right now.

Kelly Kumler:

Um, probably the websites I see that are built like the, they have like one format the whole way down the page. It's like

Vicki:

Mm,

Kelly Kumler:

image on the right, text on the left, the whole way down. Um,

Vicki:

okay,

Kelly Kumler:

gets really clunky for the human eye. And we like to see. Skim things, you know, that's like our natural thing is to like go through and skim first, and then if we see

Vicki:

yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

that we find useful, then we'll stop and read it. So if you have just like paragraphs of text, no one's gonna stop and read that. You need to like split those paragraphs up into different digestible sections.

Vicki:

Okay. Okay, great. And I, I know this from your story that you kind of soon learned after you started designing websites that SEO is really important to your clients, and so you leaned into that in offering it as an additional service. So, again, for those newer SEO, search engine optimization, So for those that are not super techie like myself, um, what, what are some very simple SEO techniques that you can build into your website, but also into your overall branding strategy? So maybe how is SEO important to social media or anything else that, that we might be using?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah. So SEO really, um, starts with keyword research and understanding what keywords people are actually looking for. And so once you do some of that research, you can use those keywords in your website, on your Instagram and Pinterest really all over because people are looking for those same keywords and all of these different platforms. Um, Keyword research is like, you know, you could go into a whole, like 12 step process of how to go about it. But I will say that my favorite tool to use is called Uber Suggest and they do have a free version. So if you are interested in like trying to get into keyword research and just finding some keywords that should be used within your website or in your content, I always recommend starting there.

Vicki:

Amazing. I think that's, I'm glad that you brought that up because that was going to be one of my next questions is, um, without having a 12 page document of what keywords work best, is there an easier way to, to do that? So it sounds like Ubersuggest is a really great tool to just start from a basic level.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, and they're going to tell you like, it's probably again, like if you're not familiar with it, it might feel overwhelming, but if you put in a keyword, it's going to spit out some information and I say pay attention to the two numbers, which is volume and SEO difficulty. So that is just how many people are searching for that keyword each month. How hard is it to rank for that word?

Vicki:

Mm. Okay. Okay. That's great. Um, and then you, so do you do copywriting for your clients, or do you suggest that people work with a copywriter to help them kind of bring all of this together?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah, I do not write copy myself. That is just not my strength. So I

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

tell people ahead of time, you know, do you plan to write your own copy or do you, are you going to work with a copywriter? Do you need a referral to a copywriter? Um, because yes, I do. I am a firm believer in Like, copy comes before design. Um, I think, like, in my ideal world, it would be, like, brand, copy, and then website design. Um, because I think it kind of, like, helps everything flow together.

Vicki:

Hello, yeah. Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

typically refer people out to other copywriters unless they plan to write it themselves.

Vicki:

Okay. Okay. And just curious, because again, all of these things kind of work together, and they're not. They're not as obvious to small business owners that all these pieces can be kind of parceled together to create your message, which I, it's funny because for a very long time when I first started my business, I didn't put a huge emphasis on building our website and it's changed and there's been iterations along the way, but something that I do like to look. Acknowledge is that they're in marketing. I see this happen a lot. Just the over analyzing the like I'm I'm more focused on. Let's demystify the process so that it works for everyone. And I'm curious what your take is. If I were to say, Kelly, how do we demystify the idea of having a really effective website For any business. What what's your take on that?

Kelly Kumler:

I think it just comes down to like, again, kind of that overthinking it, like we tend to overthink our own things, but it's really like go back to making it simple. Like what is the goal of your website? What do you want people to get out of it? then prioritize that your copy meets that goal and that the design supports that copy and that goal. Um, so it's

Vicki:

Yeah

Kelly Kumler:

to, we make it such this like big thing in our heads, but it really comes down to, are you trying to get more people to the website? Are you trying to lead people to a certain page on your website? Are you trying to lead people to inquire? Is there a direct purchase link? You know, like, what do you

Vicki:

Yep.

Kelly Kumler:

to do when they get to your site?

Vicki:

Yes, yeah, I have a lot of conversations about that. And that's something that I'm specializing in as a growth manager is just how can you I. I think a lot of people that I talk to on a general basis are like, I want to post on social media, or I know I need a website, or I know I need this on Google, and blah, blah, blah. And it's kind of asking that question, well, why? What are you going to do with it? So I, I, I agree with you so much on the idea of building a customer journey. Or a, you know, sales people call it funnel, like you can call it whatever you want, but it's really just answering that question as directly as you just asked it is, what do you want people to do when they find you? Do you want them to, how do you want them to engage with you? So it's you, the fun part and the great part about this is you get to decide, how are they going to interact? Do you want them to schedule a call with you? You want them to follow you on social? You want them to download your free resource, like what do you want them to do?

Kelly Kumler:

hmm.

Vicki:

so I like your, your demystification suggestion.

Kelly Kumler:

Just keep it simple. Yeah.

Vicki:

used that. I was talking to some high schoolers and I said something about kiss and I was like, you know, keep it simple, stupid. And then I thought, probably shouldn't call high school kids stupid but But they liked the analogy. They liked it. Um, okay. So that's amazing. So I know we talked a little bit about. Um, like business owners who are newer to the game are just starting out. Um, but let's talk about that next step, like the ones who are up leveling and the ones that you particularly work with that are saying, I know I need something different. What is that? Where, where do you get to in your business that then you decide, you know what, I need to work with Kelly because I need to show up in a different way. Like what is that stage that those business owners are in that typically call on you to help them with that growth.

Kelly Kumler:

most of the clients that I work with, they have been in business for maybe a couple of years, you know, like I would say three to five years is kind of like that sweet spot where they

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

DIY things up until this point and it has worked enough. You know, everything is good enough.

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

at this point where it's like, okay, well, I want to raise my prices or I want to start offering these grander packages, whatever it may

Vicki:

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

representation as well as the, you know, brand personality that goes behind it. Um, and how you can really show up online to, you know, these, you know, new clients that you want to be attracting that you are ready for them.

Vicki:

Yeah, okay. Okay, great. And I asked this earlier, um, but I didn't get too deep into it, but you were saying that one of a, a big way that you find your clients is through Instagram. So what is, what has been your content strategy in connecting with people that, that need your services, that, that need, you know, what, what you're offering?

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah. I mean, I think initially it was like, I'm just going to go follow a bunch of people and then they follow me back. And then like,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

go. And got a few clients that way, but it certainly has evolved over time. Um, I do, I actually work with, um, someone that helps. me plan my content. So she is definitely

Vicki:

Okay.

Kelly Kumler:

behind my strategy because I was so like burnt out from that. Like, what do I think of next? What am I saying next? Um,

Vicki:

Yeah.

Kelly Kumler:

ultimately I try and pair like, you know, free tips, um, with like some sales in there and really just like trying to make connections. Um, it is like the biggest thing that I've learned from, I think, especially from. Like my Instagram marketing is that marketing isn't about like, look at me, look at me, buy this. It's about like, when you think of this, you're going to think of me. Um,

Vicki:

Um,

Kelly Kumler:

our approach to

Vicki:

Yeah, another demystification. I love it. You don't need to have these super fancy edited. Reels with like super salesy scripty stuff. It's just sharing your knowledge. How can you be of service and You know being a resource to whoever is gonna find you

Kelly Kumler:

absolutely.

Vicki:

Yeah, well, I love this, Kelly. You've shared so many, like, golden nuggets in this interview today, of things that are such great takeaways to someone who is looking to turn a side hustle into their own business, for business owners who want to be more thoughtful about their branding and their websites that they're putting out there, which ultimately helps them grow their business, but also, but make really better connections with the customers that need them badly. So I'm so grateful for your time today and so thankful for everything that you shared. I will drop all of Kelly's information in the episode description. So if you are looking to level up your website, if you want to talk about SEO expertise, she would be the one to talk to and I want to make sure that I can be that conduit, conduit to connect you.

Kelly Kumler:

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This was very fun.

Vicki:

Thanks again for listening to another episode of the Vicki CORIs podcast. I am so honored that you choose to spend an hour of your week with me every week. If you like what you hear, you wanna continue listening, it would mean so much if you dropped a review wherever it is that you're listening to podcasts and subscribe on what. Ever platform that suits you best. Thank you so much again, and if you want more content being part of the community, you can head over to vicki coris.com, subscribe to my newsletter, and stay in touch that way. I hope you have an amazing week, and I will see you back next week.